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Mustang Technical Discussion > Pre 1973 > Smog port FE heads. What to do.... (page 3) > Community Forums > Mustang Forum Australia - Mustang Tech

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Smog port FE heads. What to do.... Reply to topic

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jarbergers
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mungus wrote
This is the one I'm looking at. Seems nicely restored.
CNC'd faces etc.


that looks like it might be a repo because there is no part number on it but i cant say for sure yet.

also, if the intake face has been machined, it might not fit well because it might sit too low . . it depends on how much they removed.

this is stock




option 2 stock shelby



Last edited by jarbergers on Sat Aug 29, 2015 6:00 pm; edited 6 times in total

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mungus
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Hi again, been away a few hours with work...

Yes I really like the 67' GT air cleaners, but alas mine is a 68', as was the Bullitt, so that's what I'm aiming for.
I have been toying with the idea of going to a 67' cleaner just for the sake of tuning, as it would be a bummer to have done all that work on the motor only to strangle it, but then the look of 68' under the hood is gone. Hence why I am thinking of maybe putting a decent slot(s) around the back of the base, where its not so visible. We'll see. Whatever happened I want the 68' set up as its part of the car, and even if it just sits in a box, I wouldn't be happy without it.

Only want 1 carb, so the multi Shelby set up isn't for me. Funnily enough my car came with a pair of unfitted new repro Shelby alloy valve covers, like those. So I guess that's the kind of thing the old owner had in mind. I'm planning on putting the standard chromed Power By Ford jobbies back on.


Grumpy old git! 68ā€™ S code Fastback

Last edited by mungus on Sat Aug 29, 2015 6:42 pm; edited 2 times in total

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mungus
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mert wrote
With an OEM '68 air cleaner no way to see any of the carb. The are big.
[URL=http://s64.photobucket.com/user/dalorzof/media/convert_04.jpg.html]
You could go for this look as its a restomod...
Was going to put it on the EXP, but went for a FoMoCo 428PI and '68 600cfm Holley instead (ran over $1000 for a clean useable PI intake when I shopped them, $800 part, $200 air freight as I didn't trust it bouncing around a container for 3 months!). if you go that route get photos of the bottom, they corrode, and look for welding around bolt holes, as soft alloy they are often cracked when folks use the "make it tighter" torque method...


True enough Mert. Perhaps I was being a bit paranoid. I think if you get your head right down you can see a bit of the carb but you're right, there's no real world visibility issues with fitting a newer / bigger 4150 under there. And unless you knew about the change, Id say with the standard finish the new 4150's hardly leap out at you as being different from the OEM vac sec carb.


Grumpy old git! 68ā€™ S code Fastback

Last edited by mungus on Sat Aug 29, 2015 7:26 pm; edited 2 times in total

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jarbergers
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mungus wrote
mert wrote
With an OEM '68 air cleaner no way to see any of the carb. The are big.
[URL=http://s64.photobucket.com/user/dalorzof/media/convert_04.jpg.html]
You could go for this look as its a restomod...
Was going to put it on the EXP, but went for a FoMoCo 428PI and '68 600cfm Holley instead (ran over $1000 for a clean useable PI intake when I shopped them, $800 part, $200 air freight as I didn't trust it bouncing around a container for 3 months!). if you go that route get photos of the bottom, they corrode, and look for welding around bolt holes, as soft alloy they are often cracked when folks use the "make it tighter" torque method...


True enough Mert. Perhaps I was being a bit paranoid. I think if you get your head right down you can see a bit of the carb but you're right, there's no real world visibility issues with fitting a newer / bigger 4150 under there. And unless you knew about the change, Id say with the standard finish the new 4150's hardly leap out at you as being different from the OEM vac sec carb.



mungus, just a reminder, if you dont do the crossover tube mod i mentioned, you will have this lovely holley fuel line which will easily be visible because it will stick out in front of the air cleaner by a kilometer, plus it will have a rubber hose or flex hose connecting it to the fuel line from the pump which will definitely not look stock which is the main reason i install the ford type crossovers . . i hate lines running all over the place.




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jarbergers
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mungus wrote

Still mulling the heads over. Mine are pretty sad, complete but just looking at them as cores really. And the offer I received from memory assumed my heads were OK. (Sorry Mert I'll get around to replying soon). I was going to build them to cobra spec anyway. I'm thinking of stroking it as there have been some good results (eagle 431 for example), using mild HYD roller cams and rebuilt fairly standard heads, that way. Nothing radical carb wise either, staying with the Holley 4150 family as they look right and are pretty good, maybe going 650-700 double pumper. The builds I've read about like that make big torque and a nice flat curve, good low end etc. Not looking for sky high pressures as I want a standard looking Ignition, so Petronix switches are OK, but no more. FORD Blue painted alloy inlet manifolds and water pumps I can stomach, as I want the weight savings and flow, but yes as constricted as they are I was hoping to keep the OEM exhaust manifolds, albeit with some work in their insides. Although I see Scott Drake offer new Cobra Jet ones for around $1K OZ. Bout the same as the FPA headers. We'll see. The motor is a way off yet anyway... I'll figure it out in due time.



I am actually an engine builder as well as a restorer and so are boofhead and shaunp and im pretty sure they would tell you the same thing which is this.

in your particular case, you need more head flow to achieve your goals . . what the dyno tests you may be seeing where they used stock heads does not show or tell you, is that if they would have used higher flow heads, they would have had more power everywhere except possibly below around 1600 rpm, and with your 3.93 gears, you will never see 1600 rpm for more than a millionth of a second because it will blow right past it with lightening speed even under slow acceleration.

this means that if you use high flow heads, you can use a SMALLER cam to get the same amount of power you could with a bigger cam with low flow heads, which means that you can have an engine that idles as smooth as a 1960 lincoln continental and still have good power if you want.

this is more true the bigger your displacement is . . to run a stroker with a set of low flow heads would be the equivalent of trying to run as fast as you can while breathing thru a straw . . . . it just wont work because there is not enough air flow.

a dyno test was done on a box stock 5.0 ford engine . . all they did was install higher flow heads and 1.7 rocker arms and that is it and it gained a whopping 80 hp.

my approach to engine building is to get the most power with the smallest cam possible . . i am not a fan of engines that have poor bottom end power.

the cams i posted are conservative, and in fact, the first one on my list is laughably small for a performance 390 but it will run strong with the proper upgrades in other areas.



regarding your previous question on the smog tubes . . yes, they typically stick into the exhaust port maybe 10 mm which does reduce flow a little but mainly at higher rpms, however, there is sometimes a lump cast into the roof of the exhaust port for the tubes . . if yours has this lump, it will definitely reduce flow and they are commonly ground flat to increase flow.

yes, the air pump will reduce power slightly . . maybe by 7 hp . . injecting air into the exhaust wont cost much power.



as far as headers go, if you have a mustang, you will likely have to notch the front of your shock tower brackets to get them in and it might take you an entire day just to get the bolts in due to lack of room, plus they will be loud and increase the temperature under the hood . . the only advice i can give you if you use headers is to use remflex gaskets . . the are graphite and will never, ever burn out, and they compress a lot so they seal almost any old leaking header even if the flanges are warped.


as far as using your stock exhaust manifolds, if they are not gt manifolds you are simply wasting your time because the flow is simply pathetic and no amount of enlarging them will do you any good at all.

with gt manifolds, the biggest cam i would run is the comp xe268h or similar, otherwise you will not get the exhaust out well enough.

you can enlarge the manifolds by having them putty ported but this is expensive and you can not enlarge them very much otherwise they may crack.

you can get 450 hp and 450 lbs of torque with the cobra jet manifolds i posted . . been there, done that . . headers will still work better.

as far as your gearing goes, if you already have the 3.93's and you like them, than that's all that matters, but i would use a numerically lower ratio with a big block if it had been modified a bit, especially if it was a stroker because the torque of the engine can pull the numerically lower gears much better, plus they dont need to rev as high.


if you use a stock air cleaner, you can just use around a 40 mm hole saw and put 3 to 4 holes in the back to increase air flow.

make sure the flapper in the snorker works.
.


Last edited by jarbergers on Sun Aug 30, 2015 10:30 am; edited 9 times in total

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jarbergers
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.
i know this might be a little off topic but i figuered i would post it because it is something few people think of or are even aware of on the fe engines

these engines can benefit from a few simple and cheap oil system mods . . there are several improvements that can be done but most only benefit people that race these . . some of these modifications will increase oil pressure at idle which is an inherent problem with some of these fe engines.

1. install a number 80 main jet in the head if you have stock rocker arms . . install a 70 main jet if you have roller rockers . . you may have to grind the head of the jet down a little to clear the pedestal bolt . . this will still allow massive amounts of oil to the top end but it will increase oil in more important places.




2. buy a cobra jet oil filter adapter or modify yours . . they allow more oil flow.




3. drill the hole from the oil pump to the oil filter adapter out to 7/16"


4. radius the edge of that hole so the size matches the hole in the oil pump . . if you make it slightly larger it wont hurt anything.


5. with the oil galley plugs removed, look thru the galleys . . you should see at least 1/4" diameter hole all the way thru . . these holes are supposed to be 5/16" . . they are drilled half way thru the block from each end and are supposed to meet and line up in the middle, however, they do not always line up perfectly . . the misalignment restricts oil flow . . a 1/4" is enough for most street engines but sometimes the alignment is so bad that the hole where they meet is less than that . . if yours is smaller than 1/4", i would use a long drill to enlarge it to 1/4".




6. make sure the oil return holes in the head and the top of the block are lined up . . i radius the hole in the block to match the hole in the head if there is any misalignment.


7. most oil filter adapter gaskets just have two 3/8" holes in them . . i cut the gasket so they follow the channels in the oil filter adapter . . this reduces the chance of the paper getting weak and breaking off after being soaked in oil for a long time.




8. heavily radius both holes you see on the oil filter adapter pad above but only on the side that follows the channel in the oil filter adapter which is shown by the cut out gasket . . this is to reduce the sharp 90 degree bend the oil makes.


9. use a 6 qt oil pan . . if you have a mustang, you need the cobra jet pan on the left otherwise your steering may just barely hit it . . the more oil you have, the easier it will be to cool the engine.




10. if you run a windage tray, you can run an additional 1/2 quart of oil regardless of what oil pan you use.


11. i tap the end of the oil galleys and use short screw in plugs if there is enough material around the hole . . i have seen way too many galley plugs come out and the possibility increases with high volume or high pressure oil pumps . . dont install them more than 6 mm below the surface otherwise they may possibly block an oil port.


12. standard or high volume melling oil pump is fine . . take the pump apart and inspect for debris from the machining process.

you can blueprint the pump if you want . . just make the clearance between the pump gears and the end plate .002" to .003" . . this can improve oil pressure.


Last edited by jarbergers on Sun Aug 30, 2015 9:36 am; edited 8 times in total

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boofhead
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Good post. In fact good several posts.


I will someday think of something clever to say.

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jarbergers
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boofhead wrote
Good post. In fact good several posts.



thanks boofhead...i was bored . . hey, i just saved you guys some time.


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jarbergers
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as far as your california smog pump question . . yes, every single car that had a california dso had a smog pump regardless of engine size.


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mungus
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All good points, thanks for the time taken. I'll use some of those ideas for sure. Had seen the oil restrictor idea, but not using a jet. Nicely done.

Whilst the builds I spoke of used stock heads, like I mentioned, mine are going to be CJ spec'd during their rebuild, as much as possible. Unless I found some good CJ heads at a similar price to the planned work. I too believe in flow over cam profile, it was more to show that good results could be achieved without resorting to expensive (and non factory looking) aftermarket heads etc. The only headers I would consider would be FPA's, due to the fitting issues you described. However I'll probably opt for the repro CJ headers as I prefer the look and they'll still achieve my goals. Thanks again.


Grumpy old git! 68ā€™ S code Fastback

Last edited by mungus on Sun Aug 30, 2015 3:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

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soc123_au
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Standox have a formula for Highland Green.

Interesting comments on waterborne. We still use solvent & will continue to do so until legislation forces the change, but I find the waterborne colours to be excellent for the most part. The clarity is better than solvent in most cases.


Album Link Below.

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jarbergers
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mungus wrote
All good points, thanks for the time taken. I'll use some of those ideas for sure. Had seen the oil restrictor idea, but not using a jet. Nicely done.

Whilst the builds I spoke of used stock heads, like I mentioned, mine are going to be CJ spec'd during their rebuild, as much as possible. Unless I found some good CJ heads at a similar price to the planned work. I too believe in flow over cam profile, it was more to show that good results could be achieved without resorting to expensive (and non factory looking) aftermarket heads etc. The only headers I would consider would be FPA's, due to the fitting issues you described. However I'll probably opt for the repro CJ headers as I prefer the look and they'll still achieve my goals. Thanks again.


no prob, you're welcome . . sorry to take up so much space, lol.

ask mert if he might sell his heads outright . . he said they might be c8ae-n but they should be c80e-n

if you build your heads, you will get a bit more flow from using undercut valves.

if you use stainless valves, they should have lash caps if the tip of the stem isnt hardened.

those repo cj headers occasionally show up as blems/seconds for around $650.00 on us ebay but shipping is a killer.

the holley jet idea has been around for years as well as all the other oil mods . . i just passed on what someone else figuered out and what i use.


ENGINE OIL

if you dont have a favorite engine oil . . look into joe gibbs off road 10w - 40 or 15w - 50 racing oil . . it is the only mPAO based oil in the world and has 1600 ppm of zddp.

another good oil is pennrite 10 tenths 15w - 40 racing oil . . it is PAO oil with 2250 ppm of zddp . . both have some ester and both are 100% shear free.

www.drivenracingoil.co...thetichtml

www.penriteoil.com.au/...id_brand=3


DISTRIBUTOR GEAR

If you run a high volume pump, i would install a hardened pin in the gear or drilill another hole and add another pin as a precaution.


OIL PUMP DRIVE

You probably already know to use a high perf one so it wont break.


Last edited by jarbergers on Sun Aug 30, 2015 4:12 pm; edited 3 times in total

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mungus
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Thanks again Berg.

Mert - did you ever get my message? For some reason it's been sitting in my forum outbox for days now, but never makes it into the sent folder...


Grumpy old git! 68ā€™ S code Fastback

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mungus
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soc123_au wrote
Standox have a formula for Highland Green.

Interesting comments on waterborne. We still use solvent & will continue to do so until legislation forces the change, but I find the waterborne colours to be excellent for the most part. The clarity is better than solvent in most cases.


Thanks, I'll add it to the list.


Grumpy old git! 68ā€™ S code Fastback

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mungus
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Just looking at the Scott drake repro CJ exhaust manifolds.
They appear to be 8 bolts a side, and presumably my 14 bolt heads were necessary to support the casting shape for the tighter radius mustang manifolds. And I see the FELPRO gaskets use the same PN for both 8 and 14 holers, so presumably they will bolt up OK...

So I have to ask, if the CJ manifolds only needed 8 holes, will they fit the engine bay without issues? Not really that interested in notching my towers etc.


Grumpy old git! 68ā€™ S code Fastback

Last edited by mungus on Sun Aug 30, 2015 4:36 pm; edited 1 time in total

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