Windsor - Retrofit Knock Sensor?

[hybrid]

Has anyone done this?

I took my car for a tuning drive on Sunday until the notebook battery died. Was very rich generally as you'd expect from an out of the box tune.
It's much more responsive now at light throttle openings, but I can now hear it pinging.
Made me start thinking about a knock sensor. Has anyone fitted one? Surely there must be a spare boss in the block that we could screw it to.

I have read that the windsors created some harmonics that screwed with knock sensors, so even the later windsors didn't have them, and retro fitting one would have the same issues.

Any truth to this?

[boofhead]

I do not think Windsor would have any harmonics that would inherently be negative to a knock sensor though I guess this is only my option (such as the world is flat). I have not tried one - I have read a fair bit about installing them. It have the impression it is common to move it around a lot to find an ideal location for the sensor.

Having said that your compression is not very high so I am surprised to hear your having ping issues. You know a lot about tuning, and have resources on had as well, so just wondering - what does you ignition map look like?

I am running 34 deg total advance at WOT and with affectively Vac advance in the map up to 45 deg advance in places. I have not noticed any pinging (not to say there is none since it can occur before you can hear it).

[hybrid]

I've got a 5.0 mustang map in it at the moment that DIY autotune did.

It's possible that if it was a stock engine, they had less compression than me. I need to do some more logging - the battery went flat on the notebook before I could do any troubleshooting.

There are some high spots in the table - not sure where it was at though when it was pinging.

Code: Select all

<zValues cols="12" rows="12">
         16.0 19.0 24.6 34.2 36.8 36.8 36.8 36.8 37.3 37.3 37.3 37.3 
         16.0 19.0 24.2 33.8 36.3 36.3 36.3 36.3 36.8 37.3 37.3 37.3 
         16.0 19.0 23.8 33.4 36.5 36.5 36.5 36.5 36.5 37.0 37.0 37.0 
         16.0 19.0 23.4 33.0 35.7 35.7 35.7 35.7 36.2 36.2 36.7 36.7 
         16.0 19.0 23.2 32.8 36.1 36.1 36.1 36.1 36.1 36.3 36.3 36.7 
         13.7 18.5 22.8 32.4 35.9 35.9 35.9 35.9 36.2 36.2 36.2 36.2 
         13.8 17.8 21.8 31.4 35.2 35.2 35.2 35.2 35.2 35.7 35.7 35.7 
         14.0 17.5 21.0 30.6 34.9 34.9 34.9 34.9 34.9 34.9 34.9 34.9 
         14.0 17.3 20.1 29.7 34.1 34.1 34.1 34.1 34.1 34.1 34.1 34.1 
         13.5 16.5 19.5 28.5 33.5 33.5 33.5 33.5 33.5 33.5 33.5 33.5 
         13.1 16.2 18.8 27.8 33.2 33.2 33.2 33.2 33.2 33.2 33.2 33.2 
         12.8 15.8 17.6 26.6 33.0 33.0 33.0 33.0 33.0 33.0 33.0 33.0 
      </zValues>

Hmm.. when I just exported it, I got some weird numbers like below.
I might import it again when the numbers fixed. Might not be an issue anyway.

Code: Select all

16.0 19.0 24.6 34.2 36.800000000000004 36.800000000000004 36.800000000000004 36.800000000000004 37.300000000000004 37.300000000000004 37.300000000000004 37.300000000000004 
         16.0 19.0 24.200000000000003 33.800000000000004 36.300000000000004 36.300000000000004 36.300000000000004 36.300000000000004 36.800000000000004 37.300000000000004 37.300000000000004 37.300000000000004 
         16.0 19.0 23.8 33.4 36.5 36.5 36.5 36.5 36.5 37.0 37.0 37.0 
         16.0 19.0 23.400000000000002 33.0 35.7 35.7 35.7 35.7 36.2 36.2 36.7 36.7 
         16.0 19.0 23.200000000000003 32.800000000000004 36.1 36.1 36.1 36.1 36.1 36.300000000000004 36.300000000000004 36.7 
         13.700000000000001 18.5 22.8 32.4 35.9 35.9 35.9 35.9 36.2 36.2 36.2 36.2 
         13.8 17.8 21.8 31.400000000000002 35.2 35.2 35.2 35.2 35.2 35.7 35.7 35.7 
         14.0 17.5 21.0 30.6 34.9 34.9 34.9 34.9 34.9 34.9 34.9 34.9 
         14.0 17.3 20.1 29.700000000000003 34.1 34.1 34.1 34.1 34.1 34.1 34.1 34.1 
         13.5 16.5 19.5 28.5 33.5 33.5 33.5 33.5 33.5 33.5 33.5 33.5 
         13.100000000000001 16.2 18.8 27.8 33.2 33.2 33.2 33.2 33.2 33.2 33.2 33.2 
         12.8 15.8 17.6 26.6 33.0 33.0 33.0 33.0 33.0 33.0 33.0 33.0 

I should have turned on logging as well as autotune, but didn't expect pinging to be honest.
I just thought a knock sensor would be a cheap little tinker I could do, but now I'm not even sure my microsquirt can use one. V1 can't... V2+ can.
I have a feeling mine might be V1 because it was a beta unit.

I could add some fuel again too, but I'm reluctant to because it's running so much better.

[hybrid]

Oh, as for the sensor - in case someone else was wondering.
Some of the last F-150s that were fitted with injected windsors had the knock sensor in the block behind the manifold near where the engine number goes.

You can see it in this pic:

[boofhead]

Good pic of the factory location. Make sense to mount it there - easy to drill and tap and safe from fluids etc and space to boot. All you need is an input 0-5v line and an external circuit that reads, conditions the sensors output. I have no idea if there is a spare input pin though for your Microsquirt.

When I was looking into common ignition maps recently I found the map for a stock HO motor and was surprised to see at WOT it was running max 26 deg advance and had a 10 deg vac advance factor - hence 36 max at high vacuum. So with that in mind I would consider dropping the table back 3 deg make it even 30 at WOT (smooth out the transition) retain your 37 for high Vac and see if it helps - you could then sneak up a little to see if it improves performance without pinging. In any case, you start to loose performance before it begins to ping so 30 might be best for your engine.
IN any case, I am not telling you any thing you do not know. I would like to know how it works out.

[ozbilt]

Good pic of the factory location. Make sense to mount it there - easy to drill and tap and safe from fluids etc and space to boot. All you need is an input 0-5v line and an external circuit that reads, conditions the sensors output. I have no idea if there is a spare input pin though for your Microsquirt.

When I was looking into common ignition maps recently I found the map for a stock HO motor and was surprised to see at WOT it was running max 26 deg advance and had a 10 deg vac advance factor - hence 36 max at high vacuum. So with that in mind I would consider dropping the table back 3 deg make it even 30 at WOT (smooth out the transition) retain your 37 for high Vac and see if it helps - you could then sneak up a little to see if it improves performance without pinging. In any case, you start to loose performance before it begins to ping so 30 might be best for your engine.
IN any case, I am not telling you any thing you do not know. I would like to know how it works out.

Any chance we could have this thread moved to the "languages" section? It sure ain't English you guys are talkin .......

[hybrid]

Good pic of the factory location. Make sense to mount it there - easy to drill and tap and safe from fluids etc and space to boot. All you need is an input 0-5v line and an external circuit that reads, conditions the sensors output. I have no idea if there is a spare input pin though for your Microsquirt.

I was planning to use the KnockSense module, but I have a bad feeling my Microsquirt is a V1 (red board) and it will not have the SpareADC2 wire connected that I would need to hook up the KnockSense.

[Shaunp]

I've got a late truck 351 here mid 90's I'll see if it has the knock sensor

[boofhead]

Fingers crossed for you. I hope you have the blue board Hybrid. I am interested in how it goes.

[hybrid]

I've got a late truck 351 here mid 90's I'll see if it has the knock sensor

It was either 86 or 96 that they went from the 5.0 to the modular engines. Probably 96?

So if that truck was injected Shaun, it may well have one.

[hybrid]

News is bad.. it's red board early model.

[boofhead]

News is bad.. it's red board early model.

Dam - unlucky. Thoughts now?

[Shaunp]

Well Astro boy's block is late F4te block, roller cam mid 90's if it had one it's not in the same spot, the 351 has no room there, it did how ever have a crank trigger on the balancer by the look. The bearings say 95, so it's a late one for sure.

Your just going to have to make a map. I'd dig up an advance curve for a normal disy and start from there.

[hybrid]

I will just turn on logging and take some advance out where it's pinging.
Longer process than using a knock sensor, but not that big a deal.

[boofhead]

I would image getting the pin out from the CPU would be a few external wiring changes to the board. I have not looked at it closely as I am not sure of the changes made between the versions of the Microsquirt (well I know a few of them though not at the low level detail we are discussing here) though I would think a few jumper wires and some careful soldering would provide the input line. I have made similar changes to my MSII to get extra output pins. Tuning changes I would make any way though it does makes sense to play for the sensor if it is possible.