First a run down on specs. 5.0 windsor stroked to 331, hydraulic roller cam, trickflow alloy heads, weiand174 supercharger, ic&e boost retard ignition with bronze gear, holley 950dp, hv oil pump.
Problem: I took it to be dynoed and it blew what I found was a inlet manifold gasket and spat water everywhere including into number 1 cylinder all manifold bolts loose and manifold lifted. It was shut down asap.
I replaced gasket, got water out and it wont start. So I check the dizzy and was out, tried again and no start so check dizzy again and its out. On closer inspection the gear is a little worn so I replaced it and the car went to fire but didn't, checked timing and out again. Pulled dizzy and its chewing the gear again. Also noticed no oil pressure building whilst cranking.
I turn the oil pump buy hand and oil spits out of the pressure switch port.
Questions: what more could've happened? Anything I can check?
Help needed
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Re: Help needed
What material is the Cam made of?
I ask because a Bronze dist gear will not last long at all especially when combined with a hv oil pump. To much load on it. I would run a steel or hardened case iron gear (depending on the Cam material used).
I would also check that bits of Bronze are not stuck in the teeth of the Cam that drives the distributor and oil pump. Also check the depth of the dist hole to verify your cam gear is installed at the correct height on the distributor. There is very little room when fully seated and if the gear is to high (or low) then problems can occur with wear on the Cam gear.
So look down the dist hole to see if any damage or junk / bronze bits are there especially in the teeth of the Cam and that the teeth are in good condition. I would turn the motor over and check it all turns over smoothly. I would also verify the pump drive is still present (which appears you have by hand turning the pump [via the drive rod I assume]). As far as oil pressure and timing can all be answer by the dist gear not engaging with the Cam teeth - hopefully the teeth on the Cam is still serviceable. Use a the appropriate steel or Iron cam gear - so you do not need to replace it all the time.
Keep us informed with how you go.
I ask because a Bronze dist gear will not last long at all especially when combined with a hv oil pump. To much load on it. I would run a steel or hardened case iron gear (depending on the Cam material used).
I would also check that bits of Bronze are not stuck in the teeth of the Cam that drives the distributor and oil pump. Also check the depth of the dist hole to verify your cam gear is installed at the correct height on the distributor. There is very little room when fully seated and if the gear is to high (or low) then problems can occur with wear on the Cam gear.
So look down the dist hole to see if any damage or junk / bronze bits are there especially in the teeth of the Cam and that the teeth are in good condition. I would turn the motor over and check it all turns over smoothly. I would also verify the pump drive is still present (which appears you have by hand turning the pump [via the drive rod I assume]). As far as oil pressure and timing can all be answer by the dist gear not engaging with the Cam teeth - hopefully the teeth on the Cam is still serviceable. Use a the appropriate steel or Iron cam gear - so you do not need to replace it all the time.
Keep us informed with how you go.
I will someday think of something clever to say.
Re: Help needed
Thanks for the reply. Its a crane cam and they recommend a bronze gear. All was good untill dyno and lifting manifold.
im thinking oil pump drive may have twisted and could be binding.
I can turn it by hand, im just not sure how much resistance it should be. Maybe too much for the bronze gear? Plus no oil pressure whilist turning over.
im thinking oil pump drive may have twisted and could be binding.
I can turn it by hand, im just not sure how much resistance it should be. Maybe too much for the bronze gear? Plus no oil pressure whilist turning over.
Re: Help needed
Crane Cams are generally a steel billet so a steel gear is the correct gear. If you have the product code then the material can be verified. The main purpose for the bronze gear is so it will sheer the teeth if load is to high on it. Thus saving the Cam. This is wise for a race engine where the Cam is very expensive and usually a custom grind and the engine gets pulled down for rebuilds regularly and the gear is replaced each time. In my view Bronze is not a gear designed for a street engine.
A HV oil pump generates far higher loads on the gear than a stock pump. I always recommend a stock (good quality) oil pump as you will still get 70 psi of pressure hot on a standard pump which is fine for up to 6500 RPM which is the maximum RPM a street engine would normally target. It is possible the pump drive is twisted if the factory drive has been used though I always change it to a stronger ARP drive in my performance builds. Most likely your simply feeling the load from the HV pump - I have a pump drive (I build one and have a commercial one) I use to preload the oil before initial start.
In any case, if you use a thin screw driver you should be able to rattle the drive around the hole if not then it is likely to be badly twisted in which case the sump needs to be dropped, oil pump out and replace the oil pump drive. You can make a pump drive out of some tube (that has been flaterned on the sides to match the hexagonal drive) or an old distributor and with an electric drill in reverse you can see the load as the oil pressure goes up. A possibility could be that the by-pass spring/mechanism is no operational so this would explain extreme loads resulting in the premature gear damage.
The manifold lifting would simply be the intake bolts not being torqued after the initial build after a few heat cycles. I do not think the issues are related. I would be interested if you find they are.
I suggest you check the oil pump, its drive and install a steel gear on the distributor (after verifying Cam material) and try again.
A HV oil pump generates far higher loads on the gear than a stock pump. I always recommend a stock (good quality) oil pump as you will still get 70 psi of pressure hot on a standard pump which is fine for up to 6500 RPM which is the maximum RPM a street engine would normally target. It is possible the pump drive is twisted if the factory drive has been used though I always change it to a stronger ARP drive in my performance builds. Most likely your simply feeling the load from the HV pump - I have a pump drive (I build one and have a commercial one) I use to preload the oil before initial start.
In any case, if you use a thin screw driver you should be able to rattle the drive around the hole if not then it is likely to be badly twisted in which case the sump needs to be dropped, oil pump out and replace the oil pump drive. You can make a pump drive out of some tube (that has been flaterned on the sides to match the hexagonal drive) or an old distributor and with an electric drill in reverse you can see the load as the oil pressure goes up. A possibility could be that the by-pass spring/mechanism is no operational so this would explain extreme loads resulting in the premature gear damage.
The manifold lifting would simply be the intake bolts not being torqued after the initial build after a few heat cycles. I do not think the issues are related. I would be interested if you find they are.
I suggest you check the oil pump, its drive and install a steel gear on the distributor (after verifying Cam material) and try again.
I will someday think of something clever to say.
Re: Help needed
I'm with boof. It's got to be an issue with the distributor gear not driving from the cam gear for whatever reason. What happened on the dyno doesn't explain how that has happened though.
See if you can shine a light down the dizzy hole to check the cam gear, or an inspection camera or something. Something is definitely not right with it.
See if you can shine a light down the dizzy hole to check the cam gear, or an inspection camera or something. Something is definitely not right with it.
Re: Help needed
Cam gear looks ok. I think ill replace drive and pump.
Re: Help needed
That doesn't really explain why the dizzy is out though every time you try and start it. Unless the drive/pump is causing the dizzy shaft to bind on the body and spin it.
Re: Help needed
That what im thinking. Its the only thing thats links the failing to stary and the no oil pressure.
Re: Help needed
How about the cam thrust plate letting the cam move?
Re: Help needed
The clearance needed for Cam trust movement does depend on the style of chain you are using meaning does it uses a torrington bearing or not. I assume it is a factory style in which case 4 to 8 thou is the range. It is easy to check though your starting to pulldown a lot more engine to do so. Unlikely to the root cause. Just keep in mind the Bronze gear is designed to self destruct quickly especially under load. It is the nature of that beast which is why I suggest you use a steel gear (assuming it is a steel billet cam).
I will someday think of something clever to say.
Re: Help needed
Pulled apart and seen the cam gear and dizzy gear not meshing properly, then noticed a large crack down the center of the motor causing the cam to be moved.
Re: Help needed
Sorry to hear it mate!
Selling the Mustang story to all those who will listen!
There are many listening in Gippsland.
There are many listening in Gippsland.
Re: Help needed
OUCH - OK cracked block is a new game all together. 302 blocks almost always break down the middle of the lifter gallery or crack the block below the mains.
Last edited by boofhead on Sat Oct 25, 2014 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I will someday think of something clever to say.
Re: Help needed
Time for a dart block.