Prices of Toploaders - Reasonable or not?

[Chux]

Ok I’m big on thinking through things before I commit to action.
My 70 Mach 1 is an M Code with an FMX.
Now I like auto’s around town but the stang will never be anything more than a toy that I can take on weekend drives not a commuter and to me if it was an auto it would need to be an OD type to at least get the benefits.

Manuals meet more of my driving style - I’d be more likely to go to a track day than a drag strip, blasting up a windy road is more fun in a manual for me.

That said my engine plans are a 408c stroker that even if I stay mildish in cam is going to hit 450hp so a manual box needs to be able to handle 400ftlb of torque or more.
So a bit of a brain dump of where I am.

Budget is a consideration, a conversion costs money but then so does a rebuild of the FMX to a decent standard or a change to a built AOD.
The TKO/T56 route would be nice but adds some complexity vs the T5/Topploader route and is likely to be a $7k experience at the least.
T5 of course becomes almost as dear as TKO or T56 when it needs an Astro/G Force upgrade but at least is an easier fit in the car.

So that leaves tried and trusted top loader - designed to go straight in by the factory. I’ve been looking but when people are wanting $2k for something that I would need to rebuild for confidence that it wont cause problems. What’s a fair price for a used top loader?

Is my logic sound? Better options? Suggestions on finding a top loader other than stalking gumtree?


PS I am not overly concerned about maintaining full originality of the car - its a factory white Mach 1 that although Marti says is a one of one that is only because it had the argent 5 slots and a weird pinstripe pack and didn’t have any great options so its not in the overly desirable level for a collector car. Neither of those are going back on, I have a factory tach dash and fold down seat to add, the interior is now black not ginger and I am tossing up whether it even goes back to white (currently red) as I have a love affair with both Grabber Orange and Calypso Coral (in a 70 its vermillion)


PPS sorry about the ramble

[smh00n]

Brand new TKO600 is $3980 from Mal Wood. Rest of the stuff would be another couple of thousand.

Good ratio's, overdrive, and strength.

Evil bay has this on offer: https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Ford-Top-Lo ... SwwZtaeSFt
$2 big ones seems OK and all the bits are cheaper and no hassle with fabricated crossmembers, etc.

The 70 have big tunnel so no issue dropping a TKO in there

[Chux]

Ok didn’t know that about the tunnel and TKO would that be the case for t56/6060 as well?

Saw the $2k new toploader. But seems unreasonably cheap which makes my spider senses go off. Alloy case top loader is like a David Kee and they are more than that in the USA ? So not sure he has that price. If he was in Brisbane I’d be prepared to risk it as I could see it before cash parted ways ?

[Pinto-Pete]

Ask Kerry nicely if he'd look for you he's out in that area..

[ants]

Here, for what it's worth, is my 2 bobs worth
I have '70 Mach 1 351 toploader with 3.0:1 diff and on trips I find I'm looking for that extra gear.

Have been considering a TKO600 and 3.73:1 diff for a while. as said earlier, they fit without tunnel mods.
When I posted about this a few months ago Shaunp suggested a T56 which I wasn't keen on due to extra work involved (some say T56 will fit with out tunnel mods others disagree).

After thinking more and more about it I'm starting to come around to Shaun's idea. Mainly because I now think that it's to big a gap between 1:1 4th gear and .64 5th in the TKO. A T56 with a gear in-between would be nice.

Currently thinking along the lines of a second hand T56 from a VX-VZ Commodore ($1,500-$2,500 on eBay & Gumtree) and Dellows Bellhousing $700.

Only downside is these gearboxes have a .5 overdrive which at 110km/h on the freeway is only 1,600RPM with a 3.73 or 1,800 RPM with a 4.11 diff both I think are to low in revs. New T56's have a .63 option which would be ideal but there is no way I'll get a $5,000+ new T56 past the "BOSS"

Got more homework to do but I do think that a T56 is the best option if you choose to convert to manual.

[hybrid]

If your cam isn't too crazy, 1600-1800 would be fine.

[Husky65]

Here, for what it's worth, is my 2 bobs worth

Currently thinking along the lines of a second hand T56 from a VX-VZ Commodore ($1,500-$2,500 on eBay & Gumtree) and Dellows Bellhousing $700.

Only downside is these gearboxes have a .5 overdrive which at 110km/h on the freeway is only 1,600RPM with a 3.73 or 1,800 RPM with a 4.11 diff both I think are to low in revs. New T56's have a .63 option which would be ideal but there is no way I'll a $5,000+ new T56 past the "BOSS"

Didn't know dellow made a bellhousing for a holden t56 to windsor?

The T56 is a double overdrive. 5th is still overdrive, and is .74ish on the holdens. So at 110 you can stay in 5th depending on your rear end ratio.

The TR6060's that come in the late models falcons/gm's are essentially an OEM T56 Magnum, and handle 600+tq. The hard part is making these fit due to all the different input shaft length, gear shifter positions and yoke designs. The tr6060's from the holdens for example use a remote shifter, and don't use a slip yoke.

The T56 from a BA/BF V8 will bolt up to a windsor using a Quicktime 8030/8031 bellhousing using a 10.5" clutch. Rated to around 450tq. These use a 10 spline input shaft, same as T5's. They use a traditional slip yoke. The shifter will be moved rearwards a few inches. You can pick these up from $700 to $1500 as they aren't in great demand. The turbo 6 t56's are in greater demand, however these won't work due to a different input shaft length.

The TR6060 from the FG V8 Supercharged Coyote motors will also bolt up to windsor using a quicktime 8030/8031 bellhousing and a 10.5" clutch( Don't use a t56 from a non-coyote FG XR8. They use a random 23 spline input shaft, and you are limited on 10.5" clutches to suit them, as they came stock with 11" clutches). Rated to 600tq I believe. These use a 26 spline input shaft, and are essentially a t56 magnum in oem form. Pick of the bunch. The box is dimensionally the same as the ba/bf t56, and so the shifter also sits further rearwards. They use a traditional slip yoke. These sell for around 1500-2500, and don't pop up too often.

Malwood sells hydraulic throw out bearings to suit both boxes if that's the way you want to go. The tranny mount will also be rearwards compared to the stock mount. Ron Morris sell a nice t56 mount to suit mustangs. I'm sure you could get one fabbed up here pretty easily though.

[smh00n]

You can get the TKO600 with a .87 5th. They also have a 2.87 1st so much better ratios without big holes.
Might be an option.
I agree with the cheap toploader price but there was also one for sale at about $4K which was rebuilt. Didnt have time to troll through ebay to find it

[ants]

If your cam isn't too crazy, 1600-1800 would be fine.

Not a big cam and the engine has heaps of torque and would probably cruise ok at the revs. My concern would be that sometimes even though the revs are lower an engine will use more fuel than at say 2,000-2,100rpm.

[ants]

Here, for what it's worth, is my 2 bobs worth

Currently thinking along the lines of a second hand T56 from a VX-VZ Commodore ($1,500-$2,500 on eBay & Gumtree) and Dellows Bellhousing $700.

Only downside is these gearboxes have a .5 overdrive which at 110km/h on the freeway is only 1,600RPM with a 3.73 or 1,800 RPM with a 4.11 diff both I think are to low in revs. New T56's have a .63 option which would be ideal but there is no way I'll a $5,000+ new T56 past the "BOSS"

Didn't know dellow made a bellhousing for a holden t56 to windsor?

The T56 is a double overdrive. 5th is still overdrive, and is .74ish on the holdens. So at 110 you can stay in 5th depending on your rear end ratio.

The TR6060's that come in the late models falcons/gm's are essentially an OEM T56 Magnum, and handle 600+tq. The hard part is making these fit due to all the different input shaft length, gear shifter positions and yoke designs. The tr6060's from the holdens for example use a remote shifter, and don't use a slip yoke.

The T56 from a BA/BF V8 will bolt up to a windsor using a Quicktime 8030/8031 bellhousing using a 10.5" clutch. Rated to around 450tq. These use a 10 spline input shaft, same as T5's. They use a traditional slip yoke. The shifter will be moved rearwards a few inches. You can pick these up from $700 to $1500 as they aren't in great demand. The turbo 6 t56's are in greater demand, however these won't work due to a different input shaft length.

The TR6060 from the FG V8 Supercharged Coyote motors will also bolt up to windsor using a quicktime 8030/8031 bellhousing and a 10.5" clutch( Don't use a t56 from a non-coyote FG XR8. They use a random 23 spline input shaft, and you are limited on 10.5" clutches to suit them, as they came stock with 11" clutches). Rated to 600tq I believe. These use a 26 spline input shaft, and are essentially a t56 magnum in oem form. Pick of the bunch. The box is dimensionally the same as the ba/bf t56, and so the shifter also sits further rearwards. They use a traditional slip yoke. These sell for around 1500-2500, and don't pop up too often.

Malwood sells hydraulic throw out bearings to suit both boxes if that's the way you want to go. The tranny mount will also be rearwards compared to the stock mount. Ron Morris sell a nice t56 mount to suit mustangs. I'm sure you could get one fabbed up here pretty easily though.

Just what I need......more options ?
Have looked at the Tr6060 but Dellows told me that their bellhousing only suits the input shaft length of T56's from LS1 Commodores and I think the aftermarket T56 Magnum , didn't think of looking at the Quicktime gear.
The other issue with Ford boxes is no speedo output, has this changed on the later boxes?
The TR6060 remote type shifter and no slip yoke can be got around, but more money is needed and would start pushing the project cost up to the point where it's easier to go a new Magnum.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Malex-LS-Co ... .l4275.c10

[ants]

You can get the TKO600 with a .87 5th. They also have a 2.87 1st so much better ratios without big holes.
Might be an option.

I think both TKO600 options have a 2.87 first but with a .82 5th and a 3.73 diff or even a 3.5 I'd be back to square 1 with looking for that extra gear on the highway.
What I'm trying to do is liven the car up with a better diff ratio and still have good revs for cruising.

Anyway, enough of my plans, better let Chux back in on his thread.

[hybrid]

I think it would have to be really badly tuned or a very inefficient cam down low to use more fuel than if it was revving higher.
At the same AFR, the engine has to use double the fuel for double the RPM - obviously that's very simplified, but each cylinder is firing twice as often.

[Chux]

Here, for what it's worth, is my 2 bobs worth
I have '70 Mach 1 351 toploader with 3.0:1 diff and on trips I find I'm looking for that extra gear.

Have been considering a TKO600 and 3.73:1 diff for a while. as said earlier, they fit without tunnel mods.
When I posted about this a few months ago Shaunp suggested a T56 which I wasn't keen on due to extra work involved (some say T56 will fit with out tunnel mods others disagree).

After thinking more and more about it I'm starting to come around to Shaun's idea. Mainly because I now think that it's to big a gap between 1:1 4th gear and .64 5th in the TKO. A T56 with a gear in-between would be nice.

Currently thinking along the lines of a second hand T56 from a VX-VZ Commodore ($1,500-$2,500 on eBay & Gumtree) and Dellows Bellhousing $700.

Only downside is these gearboxes have a .5 overdrive which at 110km/h on the freeway is only 1,600RPM with a 3.73 or 1,800 RPM with a 4.11 diff both I think are to low in revs. New T56's have a .63 option which would be ideal but there is no way I'll get a $5,000+ new T56 past the "BOSS"

Got more homework to do but I do think that a T56 is the best option if you choose to convert to manual.

The Commodore t56 is an option but I didnt think it fit the 1970 that well? If thats not the case it will be worth investigating, however its not something you might expect will be simple with the need to have custom clutch and spacers?

I've got 3.25gears and I think going to a 6 speed I would be either out of licence points in a fairly short period or lugging the engine as I think the 408c with my current thoughts on cam of a 272/282 solid will not be at its best below 2k.

I'm similar to you, the cost of a T56 is hard to get past the chief. The TKO is only going to cost $1k less but at least you can use a toploader bellhousing rather than going to the QT which might bring it down under $5k total?

Anyone else think an ally Toploader for $2k is too good to be true?

[Husky65]

Just what I need......more options ?
Have looked at the Tr6060 but Dellows told me that their bellhousing only suits the input shaft length of T56's from LS1 Commodores and I think the aftermarket T56 Magnum , didn't think of looking at the Quicktime gear.
The other issue with Ford boxes is no speedo output, has this changed on the later boxes?
The TR6060 remote type shifter and no slip yoke can be got around, but more money is needed and would start pushing the project cost up to the point where it's easier to go a new Magnum.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Malex-LS-Co ... .l4275.c10

Yeah interesting. I have been to dellow a few times, as that's what I have in my car right now for the T5.

The speedo output is the only negative this yeah. Malwood has a rear case conversion with one. I have a gps speedo so it doesn't really register with me when I'm doing my research.

That kit for the gm tr6060 looks good. I might head over to their place and have a look in person at the yoke setup.

As I said before, a tr6060 is basically a t56 magnum internally. It's the way to go, but does require some modifying. Worth it in the end I would think.

[hybrid]

Anyone else think an ally Toploader for $2k is too good to be true?

Never been a fan of toploaders so don't know much about them, but why not give the bloke a call with your BS sensor turned on?